John C. Green is director of the Ray C. Bliss Institute of Applied Politics at the University of Akron, and he works with the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. Chris Hamby spoke with him recently about religion's role in politics and the bearing religion might have on this year's Ohio Senate race.
Hamby: The Columbus Dispatch did a poll that found people divided on these issues – candidates talking publicly about their religious beliefs, public officials’ closeness to religious leaders, clergy members talking politics from the pulpit. What do you think about those issues?
Green: Well, those are all controversial issues. People perceive that when a particular activity supports their side, they tend to like it, and when they perceive that it doesn't, they tend to dislike it. It's not 100 percent by any means, but Democrats tend to be more critical of that type of expression in politics.
Now, if you were to go back 30 years ago to the anti-war movement or a little bit earlier to the civil rights movement, the numbers would have been largely the opposite. The Democrats would have thought that religious people involved in politics was a good idea, and Republicans were very skeptical. In those days, a lot of the religious activism was on the liberal side. So some of this is just where it is perceived that religion matters politically.
H: It seems as if we always hear about abortion and gay marriage as religious issues. What about poverty, health care and a minimum wage increase? Are those religiously connected issues too? And if so, why aren't they emphasized in that context as much as abortion and gay marriage?
G: All of those issues can be advanced from the point of view of religious values. If you take the New Testament and look through it, you might conclude that Christianity supports aid to the poor and you might also conclude that Christianity supports traditional marriage. But in recent times, religious conservatives have really made much out of the link between religious values and abortion and marriage and really argued that very strongly.
During the same time period, people who supported welfare programs or protecting the environment or other such issues have tended not to emphasize the religious roots of those policies. And it's kind of interesting to think about why they haven't. But the net result was that, if you looked before 2004 in the typical newspaper or listened to the typical broadcast of the news, you would get the sense that religious people were mobilized around those sexual issues and that it was largely secular people who were mobilized around these other domestic issues.
Now, I think that's been changing since 2004. The 2004 election was something of a wake-up call to religious moderates and liberals, and they began to argue that their perspective needed to be heard. So since 2004, you've heard a lot more people talk about poverty and the environment and these types of issues in terms of religious values. But there was a period there of about 20 years when those arguments were rare.
H: Is it right for people to discuss these issues in a religious context, or are religion and politics issues that should stay separate?
G: I don't know how in a democracy where you have a lot of freedom and, in the United States, the First Amendment, I don't know how you can keep people from talking about the things that matter to them most. There are people who argue that the involvement of religious values in politics is an unfortunate thing, unfortunate for basically two reasons.
One- because when religion comes into politics, it often leads people to think in cosmic terms and also in terms of basic principles upon which there can be no compromise. And so the argument is that when religion is interjected into political argument, it can make politics more polarized and less subject to compromise. Another argument is that to argue for a policy from a religious point of view assumes certain beliefs. And in a country that's very diverse in religious terms, like the United States, not everybody shares the same beliefs about God, the afterlife, morality and so forth. And so, the argument goes, to use religious arguments in politics is to essentially use a private argument that not everybody can participate in because not everybody shares those basic beliefs.
I think those two argument are valid arguments and that they reveal that religion can have a real downside that comes into politics. And we all know from history and from other countries around the world that these types of problems can lead to violence. So there is really a downside to having religion in politics. But there is also an upside. Religious people, whatever their perspective, tend to talk more about principles rather than just self-interest. A politics in the absence of all religion would be much more about self-interest than about the common good or notions of the appropriate standards of behavior. Some of the most important changes in American history, things like the civil rights movement, could not have happened without religious arguments being applied in politics.
So I guess where I would come down is, it's inevitable in a country like ours that religion will come into politics. It is sometimes quite unfortunate and creates real problems. On the other hand, it sometimes is extremely beneficial. So religion is like a lot of things in politics; it can be both good and bad. You just kind of have to hope that the good outweighs the bad.
H: Do you think a lot of people vote based on looking at a candidate and saying, "Well that person basically shares my belief system religiously, so I'm going to vote for them," and is that a rational way to decide whom to vote for?
G: Well, some people really do apply their religious values to politics in a very sophisticated way. A lot of people really don't. They either look at the religious affiliation of the candidate, or they get some sort of sense of, "Is that candidate like me?" Oftentimes, many people think if a candidate talks about their faith, then somehow that reveals them to be a moral candidate. And they certainly want moral people in government, so they vote on that basis. So a lot of the application of religion is politics is pretty unsophisticated.
To be fair, though, I have to point out that most people's political decisions are not very sophisticated. What a lot of voters do is they tend to look for shortcuts, ways that they can make decision between the candidates that doesn't require a lot of extra effort. There are lots of these features of candidates; religion is just one. I don’t think that that's a particularly rational way to make decisions, but a lot of people really do use those sorts of shortcuts.
H: The argument often goes that America was founded as Christian nation on Christian ideals. Is that the case?
G: There's a lot of selective reading of history by religious people, but also by non-religious people. There are those who want to argue that the United States was in some sense founded as a Christian nation, and there are those who want to argue that the United States was entirely a secular nation.
In my perspective, both of those positions are largely incorrect. There's no question that the American Constitution is a secular Constitution. The founders, well aware of the trouble religion had caused in Europe, wanted to maintain a separation between the federal government and religious institutions.
On the other hand, many of the founders were quite religious people. They didn't have any problem with religious groups bringing their faith into politics. In fact, many of them wrote very cogently how they saw the basis of the political order as being rooted in religious beliefs.
If you look at the founders, it's a much more complicated picture, where Christianity certainly played an important role but was by no means dominant. So, if you look at it from that point of view, what we see today is the political arguments of this time – exactly what the relationship should be between politics and religion – we see that being projected back on the past with people such as those on the Christian Right wanting to see their position in the minds of the founders and their opponents – people like the ACLU and Americans United For the Separation of Church and State – likewise wanting to see their views in the minds of the founders.
H: Christian Conservatives overwhelmingly back Republicans, but, especially in Ohio, Republicans are beset by numerous corruption and ethics scandals. So don't lofty statements of moral authority sound a bit out of place in this context?
G: Oh yes, they do. Many religious people in Ohio who have been voting Republican are very upset by these corruption situations. Many of them may end up voting Democratic this time.
H: Well, what if they were faced with a conflict – say there is a corrupt candidate but they're staunchly pro-life and the only other choice is a candidate who is pro-choice. Do you think they would actually cross over?
G: Some of them might. Some of them might just stay home when faced with that really tough choice, with, in some sense, both candidates being unacceptable.
H: Which would benefit the Democrats, right?
G: That's right. In fact, some of the conservative Christian groups in Ohio are making that very argument – that staying home is essentially a vote for the Democrats. And that argument might work. Some people might say, "Well, I'm pretty unhappy with the Republicans, but at the end of the day, I have to vote for them because they're better on issues like abortion."
Of course, that argument could backfire, and people could say, "Well shoot, if staying home is a vote for the Democrats and I really ought to go vote, maybe I should just vote Democratic this year." But you're onto something. There is disquiet in these religious communities. So it may be difficult for the Republicans this year in Ohio to get the same level of support from conservative Christians and other Christians that they've had in the past.
H: How do you see this playing out in terms of an overall effect on the DeWine-Brown race?
G: The polls seem to show that the race is extremely close, so this could have a really big effect. If a lot of conservative Christians stay home, then that could make it much easier for Sherrod Brown to win the election. By the same token, Sherrod Brown is in a position where he may get some religious voters because of the war in Iraq. He may not do especially well with evangelicals, but he may do much better with Catholics and mainline Protestants, two large and important groups.
- Chris Hamby